Why is Lyn Kirk's singing.com.au using a |
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You may have already realised that 'sinKing.com.au' is a name very close to 'singing.com.au' . . . I'm David Kenward, and I'd like to explian why that other website - singing.com.au - has such a lot of karaoke venues listed, but also why using that list will be one of the most frustrating things you ever try to use. Because a list is only as useful as the information it contains. I run Australia's #1 karaoke website, where 2 sing, which has a huge database of karaoke gigs - built up from over 4 years of work. It's a genuine database, not a static list, which means that it's constantly updated and corrected, and it is the result of countless hours of phone calls, thousands of emails, personal travelling and visiting karaoke gigs around Australia, and the collective input of Australia's karaoke hosts and singers. Of course this also makes it a prime target for others to pirate, and Lyn Kirk of singing.com.au decided it was 'fair game.' But there's a problem . . . Any huge list of karaoke gigs looks really good - but is it really of any use? No - as soon as someone tries using it and finds much of the information is incorrect, we lose a potential new karaoke enthusiast.
Way back in late 2002, new to Sydney and to karaoke, I attempted to use websites to find karaoke - but I visited 3 pubs
before I realised that - Today, the 'Where 2 sing' database holds much more information than purely the venue's name, address, phone numbers, dates and times - it also has considerable detail about the type of gig, size of crowd, quality of equipment etc, as well as singers' votes as to whether this extra information is correct; and most of the gigs also have entensive feedback from singers. Yep, the 'Where 2 sing' database stands above all others because of the size of the karaoke community that constantly supplies it with information (and I guess that's what you get when you spend thousands of hours programming and working over a database and website).
She is herself a karaoke singer and therefore already used the 'Where 2 sing' database to find gigs, and obviously thought she could benefit her own website by simply adding this list. Of couse I've asked her to remove the list from her website, but her response was rather less than courteous...lol.
The list looks impressive because of its size and detail, but there's no way for a person reading it to know that it's nearly a year out of date and that much of it is incorrect. And that gives karaoke a bad name, and cheats karaoke hosts of new singers - in fact we all lose by way of less karaoke choices in Australia.
Lyn Kirk runs a small Sydney singing teaching business, yet the list contains venues Australia-wide and including many as far away as Tasmania, NT, and WA. And the chance that someone starting their own list would end up with precisely the same venues as 'Where 2 sing' - and missing the same ones as were at the time missing from 'Where 2 sing' but actually already running and later included in 'Where 2 sing' - would be a truly far-fetched coincidence. Even the exact spellings of the names and addresses are identical, even in the rare cases where the 'Where 2 sing' database modified the venue's full title. And start & finish times are identical to the 'Where 2 sing' database - even when the host, singers and venue have provided 'Where 2 sing' with slightly differing information and the 'Where 2 sing' database has chosen just one of them. But most damning of all is that Lyn Kirk's list includes everything that was in the 'Where 2 sing' database at a certain point in time, but no extra information - so that the only place from which her list could come would be the 'Where 2 sing' database at that exact moment in time.
The entire list is copyrighted by 'Where 2 sing', not the individual venues. As in the copyright that White Pages holds over its information, and as shown by the way that the White Pages and Yellow Pages owners have successfully protected themselves from others claiming it were legal to 're-key' (physically re-type information by copying it from the original source) such information, it is the list in substantial form that is copyrightable - and especially when the owners have spent considerable time and effort compiling the list. For example, copy a line out of a song and you're merely quoting it, but copy a substantial part of the song and you're infringing on the copyright held by the person who wrote it. The value of the 'Where 2 sing' database lies in the particular pubs and clubs in Australia that are listed, and equally its value lies in those that are not listed.
A search of 'Where 2 sing' on the Internet archive http://www.archive.org will show the slow building of the 'Where 2 sing' database over years, whereas searching Lyn Kirk's singing.com.au will reveal a very different story. And is the website of a Sydney singing teacher really likely to hold more information than a dedicated national website database set up years ago for the purpose of listing karaoke venues?
Yes, and this is how it works: You'll be asked to supply some brief feedback about karaoke venues you've already visited, or a really short karaoke-related experience or story, in return for 24 hours' access to the full Gig Listings. Or you can choose to subscribe to 'Where 2 sing' - and enjoy permanent and complete access to everything on the website. In such a way, 'Where 2 sing' welcomes both regular karaoke enthusiasts and the occasional singer.
No, I'm not, but she does appear to have pirated the 'Where 2 sing' gig listings in an attempt to attract Australia's karaoke singers, and she is using it for commercial purposes by offering discount vouchers for her singing lessons to those who supply information that updates her pirated list.
Maybe, and it does appear so from what she has written about herself on her website - but I would also wonder what else she has pirated, and whether even her singing lessons are better learned from the original person who put together the courses that Lyn Kirk now uses, and for which Lyn does seem to charge a fairly high fee.
1. Always check the 'Where 2 sing' database first, and note the 'Last Confirmed' date
'I can't imagine that our lists would be all that similar, because I know for a fact that many of the venues on my site are no longer running, and I do ask all visitors to confirm the information with the venue prior to showing up.' '...As a former karaoke operator myself, I understand that many people have a need for listings like ours. Since my listing will never be as comprehensive or as up-to-date as yours, I am willing to provide a link to your site; perhaps you could reciprocate with a link from yours to mine. Please let me know.'
'It's been a while since I've seen your list (I can't get access to it now), but from what I remember, the format of your list isn't column-based, whereas the system I designed has most of the data in separate columns.' '...Lyn's list was compiled with the help of a lot a people, NOT FROM HER OWN RESOURCES. It is therefore difficult to ascertain who contributed what information.' '...If you wish to debate the legitimacy of re-keying information, then by all means bring it on!' '...All that statement means is that we can't verify its source; it doesn't mean it came from your site, moron. That's something you'll have to prove, won't you!'
'I neither endorse nor comment on any statements or actions made by Steve, so please don't try to bully me by using his emails against me.'
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